If you are unhappy at your church; should you change churches? Or change you? Those are the only options. Consider them both fully before you make a decision. Once decided, take your action and don’t look back. Move forward, bigger and better things are ahead of you; provided you make the right decision.
Recruiting people to your discontent is wrong and childlike. It is a hollow attempt to justify your decision by convincing others (and yourself) that you are right. It shows the root of your issue and bears witness to the character of the individuals that play such games.
Why be more concerned with the ease in which we are willing to allow you to go, than you are with the ease in which you decided to leave.
If you’re not happy at Shanghai Inn, don’t scream at Flossie, go to Hong Kong Inn. Not happy there, go to Canton Inn. Don’t like their sauce, go to Fire & Ice…Maybe the common denominator between all of your disappointments is you.
46 comments:
Straight to the point. It is totally a heart issue. We can be constructively critical about church and leadership decisions, BUT if we are not willing to come to the table and discuss the issues - and be open to change ourselves - to seek a solution then we have allowed our pride to speak for us.
Maybe as a church we should be concerned about the unhappy people. Try to help them and see if there is a solution to the problems. Just because someone is unhappy and contemplating leaving , shouldn't mean that we just ban them from our private little groups. On second thought maybe if we didn't have our private little groups, with such high social status' then we wouldn't have this problem. Maybe it isn't about the music like everyone seems to think.
Have you heard of the Hegelian dialectic? It's where you have a Thesis, an Anti-Thesis and a Synthesis. It's a philosophy of how to weed out certain undesirables. You break people down into small groups with a change agent, there you see the people who are Thesis, they are right and will not change. There's the Anti-Thesis people who are wrong and will not change. And then you have the Synthesis, those who will compromise and be "in sync" with each other. Rick Warren, Steven Furtick and other emergent's are very familiar with this philosophy because it was used by Peter Drucker and other business leaders who they read after. You weed out the Thesis people who won't change, then you weed out the Anti-Thesis people who won't change and you are left with the in sync people who will compromise. Ripe for the three legged stool of government, business, church to bring in world peace.
so then basically you have a bunch of people who just follow everyone else and so long to everyone else. How is that right? Is that biblical? Or is that the wordly view? And why would a church allow a wordly view insides it's door? I'm not so sure that this is the right approach.
I think there are several clicks with in HS a few are big and would never think of any one thats not just like them in. Some of the clicks are trying to run HS right now and that is some of the reason we are where we are. Lets get back to the Pastor running the church .
Anonymous:
Have you gone to your Pastor about this? I don't see it that way, but you are entitled to your opinion. My Pastor is following as God is leading him. Why not let him lead instead of questioning his motives anonymously over the web.
Chris Talburt
Addressing clicks...
I have been at High Street all my life. I used to think there were clicks and would worry about my "status" or why I wasn't invited to things but you know what?
A friend shows himself friendly. Why should I expect anyone to invite me to something or talk to me if I never talk to them? Of course there are groups of people that are tighter than others. Look closely and you will see that many times those groups have relationships that have been built on family ties and/or deep friendships.
Does that mean that no one is guilty of leaving people out or not speaking to people? Of course not! I am as guilty as anyone of neglecting greeting people at church. However I have learned that if I let go of my own insecurities and just TALK to people it sure feels less and less like clicks and more and more like brothers and sisters in Christ.
If you feel left out feel free to come to Justin's birthday tomorrow at 1pm in the High Octane room. You are welcome to join us.
Sarah Kelley
The church should be concerned with the unsaved... the unhappy is a mirror issue. I suggest people look at themselves to find why they are not happy and stop assigning blame to the Pastor. If people can't move forward, move on... If you are in the boat, pick up an oar and start rowing, preferably in the right direction. Otherwise, maybe there is another boat you need to be in...
To anonymous, chris talburt
Of course you don't see it that way, because you are in the one big main click. And why talk to the pastor he is too.
I'll be in the clique with the Pastor anytime.
No matter how you spell it, that is not something that should be apologized for.
Anonymous:
I enjoy the company of those who I serve with at church. We have a lot in common so we do things outside of church. In a church our size do you think it is possible to be close with everyone? We try to be involved in a lot of areas of the church and know as many people as we can. Last night we had a group of ladies at our house who make up three different Sunday school classes and three different generations. Our doors are always open and the different people that we serve and serve with are constantly at our house, on our phone, and on our email box. Before you question my motives and label me as part of a clique please try to get to know me. Give me a call anytime. My phone is open 838-8024.
As to your comment about my Pastor, enough is enough. I will not tolerate that sort of disrespect.
Chris Talburt
Any group my Pastor is in would be a priveldge to be in. It is an honor to have him as my Pastor. Mark and Chris...you guys aren't so bad either. :)
Sarah K
I am not a part of your church so I hope it is OK that I comment. I have found that anywhere I go, there I am....So maybe the problem is more with me than with the other guy. I need to look in the mirror and fix me first before I try and fix the other guy. Hey, isn't there a verse in the Bible about that? hmmmm...
I went to another church here in town from my freshman year of high school until Skyler and I were well into dating. Then I started going to High Street, and one of the main reasons I loved coming to High Street was because for the first time in my life I felt like I was a part of the Church (big c). Everyone welcomed me in and wanted to hear about what was going on in my life and what my band was like and I saw people (and still do see people) fervently seeking Christ and His business. I finally felt like I wasn't at some religious establishment once or twice a week. It went way beyond (and still does go beyond) the church building. I felt like I was at home, and that I had a place at High Street even though I was a bit of a stranger. Everyone was constantly talking and inviting each other over and keeping up with each others' blogs. I was fascinated at how much the members at High Street wanted to be involved in each others' lives. I could easily have asked Skyler to go to "my" church with me when we got engaged, but I didn't want to because it didn't feel like a family. High Street does.
I find it hard to understand references made to cliques, because I have not seen one.
Chad:
That is very easy for you to say since you came to HS and straight in to a clique. Some of us have been at HS worked in different areas of ministry and it is very hard to fit in for sure.
Seriously Anon. Can I call you Anon for short? Call me I would love to talk through this. You are welcome to come by my house for pie and coffee. Feel free to bring your husband.
CT
Anonymous. I think I see your problem here. It's hard to fit in anywhere when you refuse to tell anyone your name.
As for any clique that I am in .... Your invited to join anytime. You'll just need to wear a name tag to let us know who you are ... You know at the meetings and such.
I wish commenters would sign their comments. Firstly because I feel like if you won't sign your name to your words you can't and don't really stand behind them, and practically because it's so hard to figure out if all anonymous comments are from one anonymous commenter or several. It's just hard to follow the conversation.
I have no doubt that anonymous, whether singular or plural, will have a quick response to this, so I ask: Anonymous, Do you have friends? Assuming you do, Do you have things in common with your friends? Do you spend time with them? Do you invite them over, meet at B&N, have coffee? Do you say hi as you pass them in the halls at church? Do you sometimes spend time with them without extending the invitation to all 300 of your facebook friends, or the entire roster of your Sunday School class?
I think that the word clique has been greatly misused in this conversation. The definition of the word clique is, "a small, exclusive group of friends or associates." Assuming you place my husband and I in the same category of friends, I cannot seem to find anything about my close friends that would make us exclusive, or frankly, a "small group." For one, Chad and I are blessed to find ourselves friends with people both our age and older. Some of those poeple have children, some don't. Some have adopted, some haven't. Some have more money than others, some are stay-at-home mothers, some work in offices, some work in a different place every day. Some are athletic, some aren't. Some of my friends are jeep people and some don't see the appeal. Some of my friends use macs and some use pcs. My point is, the one thing I can say I see in common with the people I spend my time with is that they love the Lord and sincerely want Him to be the focus of their home and lives. I cannot find anything that would prevent anyone from being friends with my friends except not sharing that conviction.
I don't know who you are, and even if I did I would not accuse you of not loving the Lord or not wanting him to be a part of your life or your spouses life or your children's life. The only thing I can conclude is that something else is holding you back. You'll have to excuse my example; I'm young and my experiece is limited, but I do know that when I was in middle and high school I was afraid my clothes weren't right and my hair wasn't right and I couldn't say clever things. Because I thought these things about myself I was very quiet and withdrawn. I didn't have a ton of friends then. And it was no one's fault but my own.
FIRST: leaving a name would only have you and your GROUP of such holy people treat us like crap..ohh but whats new? SECOND its true what has been posted about these "Groups" you hanging out with..I know you guys have know eachohter for years and have done things together and your relationships have grown..but do you guys realize how snotty you guys act and how you push ohters, who do not come to your level, away. it's nasty what goes on here at H.S.
not only are the "groups" wrong but so is the fact that certain things that happen at High Street: like the molester who was able to work with other kids..building of the coffee shop when we should have fixed other things that are falling apart at the church. Pastor who hides things...it amazing!
The only person on here who makes me believe there is any kind of hope is Chris...he has kept his cool and seems like he really would like to make people feel welcomed...
chad you have not seen one because you have fallen into the "cliques"!!!! HELLO
Amen to that Anonymous....
Sorry, not able to understand why you continue to stay somewhere you feel so unwelcome. I am sorry you feel that way, and sorry that you hide behind "anon" to say things that are mean, hurtful and untrue. I don't mean to sound snotty, pushy, or make you think you are not on my level...but you have some serious issues, and this blog is not where you should be trying to work them out.
Again, if you have such bad feelings about our church, then maybe you should seek to "worship" elsewhere, but at the very least, stop commenting on this blog, please. You have made your point. Move on. You are now bringing up things that are not gonna be discussed on this blog, and you are putting my family down and our church down, and I for one am sick of it.
can't you figure out my first statement...if i put my name on her you and your "GROUP" will only treat us like DIRT. it will never end...leaving isnt the problem. Im wondering if you are noticing everyone who is leaving..umm duh! they arent leaving because they want to it's because they need to! THIS PLACE IS NOT A CHURCH!!!
you husband posted this thing knowing this was going to happen, so why are you getting upset now. He knew comments like this would start up and he enjoys it...wow, thats pretty sad!
This place is a blog.
The reason that you don't feel included is that you don't support the pastor or his leadership, you are conspiracy minded. Each of the issues you bring up I feel 180* opposite on. Why would anyone want to be friends with people that are so disagreeable? Why would anyone who supports our church want to break bread with someone who wants to undermine it or it's leadership?
Maybe bad things have happened to you in the past. I pray that you can work thru your pain. It's obvious that your hurting and I wish you peace and I hope that wherever the Lord takes you he will provide you with the friendships that you desire.
Wherever you go or even if you decide to stay where you are. It's heart attitude that builds close friendships. The common denominator for all your troubles might be you. If the problem is you. Then the solution is you. I hope you find it.
Anon
If that is really how you feel about the church and your Pastor I don't think that the Lord would have you stay here. My offer still stands for you to come by the house tonight for pie and coffee and we can talk about this like adults. 838-8024. It is a serious offer and I make a serious pie. I don't think you will come because I don't think you really want work on the problem.
CT
Well Hillen... its hard to follow leaders that feel they are above the law and hide things to protect themselves...also anyone that opposes what is going on is asked to leave the second they say anything...wow..this church has changed over the years....that's not the way a church is supposed to be.. it is supposed to support its members when they ask for help...I haven't seen any support coming from there in a long time..OH unless your in the right clique!!!
mom
I'm sorry for what happened to your family. It was wrong and tragic and I understand your anger. But it's misplaced When directed at the Pastor or at the church.
As for hiding things. A pastor does not have the ability to air out everyones dirty laundry on the world wide web. Thank goodness. Nor can he even defend himself publically many times. Suffice it to say that if you can't trust him to do the right thing, or even admit that there could be more facts that you are unaware of. If you can't follow your boss, quit your job. Can't follow your pastor, change pastors. Don't like the people your hanging out with, get new friends. Don't like yourself, Well you have to change you. Again I'm sorry for your pain. I pray that in time you will find justice and peace and your life can be healed from the awful things that were done.
Nothing has happened to my family, its what has happened to other families at the church...and as for liking myself, I don't have a problem w/that either...
CT - can I stop by for some pie? I'll make up a problem if that can get me some pie.....
HelterShelter
HS
Any time. tonight's pie is blueberry. If Anon does not come you are welcome.
CT
I guess Anon is a no show. Anyone else want to come by for pie? I will throw in diner. You can put a bag on your head if you want to keep your identity a secret.
CT
Hillen, you just posted this blog to beat Admin's # of comments, didn't you?
Ulysses Everett McGill: "Pete, the personal rancor reflected in that remark I don't intend to dignify with comment. But I would like to address your general attitude of hopeless negativism..."
Since I will be leaving Springfield in less than 10 hours, I feel as my final duty I must get how all these comments have made me feel off my chest. I don't understand why people continually have to find something wrong and constantly feel the need to throw others under the bus. Take responsibility for things that happen. Annoy, I'm sorry you don't feel accepted at HS. From personal experience I can say that at one point I felt the same. This may be from a younger person's standpoint because I do not know your age, but that shouldn't matter. A few years ago I dreaded going to church because I felt like everyone had their own group of friends or "clique" as you'd like to call it and there wasn't a point in me trying. I kept that attitude until I realized through the difficulties in my life, I needed someone there to talk to. With this tugging my heart, obviously the place to turn should be to someone at your church. I was torn because I did not feel accepted and had no idea who I would talk to. Before I gave up all hope, I randomly wrote one of the people from church a message on facebook explaining my problem and asked if there was anyway we could meet up to talk. Within the hour, I had paragraphs written back to me with nothing but the willingness to help. After meeting with this person and talking to them, I realized it wasn't people from church not wanting to hang out with me, it was my own self not giving them a chance. This person who helped me is one of my closest friends now and has made the biggest impact in my life. I realized that the second I made the effort to talk to more people and get more involved, I felt so close to everyone. They are my family now and have shown me true compassion that I hope everyone gets to experience.
Basically what I'm getting at Annoy is that if the people who I've grown to consider my family will be labeled as a "clique" I'll take that because they have been the most inspiration "group" of people I've ever met.
It's like my dad always told me "decisions, choices, consequences" ... I decided to put myself out there for better or for worse. I choose not to give up hope and to give people a chance and with that, the consequences have turned out more than I could have ever asked for.
This isn't just you Annoy, many people have mixed feelings about the church and the path it is going on. Personally we all just need to stop fussing, put ourselves out there, and worship the Lord. In the end, nothing else will matter. Why waste time bickering when you could have the time of your life with the fellowship around you.
I've grown to love High Street and will miss it greatly. Can't wait to come back in visit. As for you Annoy, I hope you figure out what you're looking for because there is a place for everyone! You don't have to grow up with these people or be "related" to them to become part of the family.
--- Frew
so hillen... i need to know, what is the purpose of the prayer cards that are filled out on Sunday's???
Thanks Frew...were going to miss you while your at school...Guatemala was a great Mission Trip. I didn't really know you much before. Fun times.
Mom...The connection cards are a place for you to fill in your name so we can get to know you...Have a good night. :-)
well i guess it depends on who u are whether you ever receive a call or anything.... i filled one out like a month ago and never heard a thing.... but its really not that much of a surprise to me, cuz that's the way it is there... its who u are and what clique your in...
You have to put your name and contact info on it...
yeah I did...
Anonymous.
I deleted your last question. To answer it. Of course not. That is ridiculous and anyone who tells you otherwise is lieing to you for some reason.
I would like to meet the person who feels it's their responsibility to criticize God's man... and give them a Bible to read!
Scott Marsh
Mom, we all know who you are. I think you want us to know. I have always liked you and I've been blessed by your willingness to minister to our children. However, I feel like I must speak out and ask you to please stop smearing the name of our church and our pastor. You have a history of doing this online and it needs to stop.
Rachel...i don't believe you do know who this is...you just think you do..
Mom and all the Anons who are posting,
If that is how you really feel about my church and Pastor and you are not willing to work with him to resolve your issues you need to leave. You are the source of the division. If you have already left then SHUT UP! There is no need to continue to be negative with your Facebook posts, your conversation and on here. Work on it or leave and SHUT UP!
I feel like I am wrestling with a pig in the mud. I can't win because no matter how long we fight you like it in there and I just get dirty.
Chris Talburt
Acts 7
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Proverbs 26:4 (King James Version)
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
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